No, I don’t need advice about walking my cat, thank you anyway, Village cat lovers….
I’m referring to our cantilevered second-floor concrete walkways, many 30-plus years old like ours. Throughout the Village our concrete elements are cracking and needing attention. What about our concrete catwalks—especially those with heavy concrete railings? Haven’t some in the Village fallen down? Shouldn’t we being taking steps to prevent this from happening?
What would any of you who are in the know recommend we do? Some associations have installed posts at the outer edges of the catwalks, which I’m sure must help. Would you suggest posts be made of steel, wood or concrete? How far apart would you suggest these be placed? Would you advise putting in a header (and if so, of what material)? Would the typical first floor walkway provide sufficient footing, or would you put in a special footer under each post? Would you place the posts between the square balustrade posts on the catwalk or directly under them? (I understand each section of concrete railing is supported by these square posts not the rounded balusters.)
We would appreciate any advice that is out there on how to deal with what we think is a looming problem. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, seems to me. We're looking for the least expensive, effective way to remedy this problem without creating an eyesore.
Thanks.
Hi Lanny,
ReplyDeleteThis issue should be raised with Dom and the Maintenance Committee immediately.
Most of your answers will be Code Driven by the Florida Building Code; this is not a matter of personal choice.
Collateral to this problem is 40 year recertification which is slowly creeping our way from South Florida, where it is law. If enacted in Palm Beach County, it would sweep away most of our "grandfathering" which would cost us millions in retrofitting to current code.
All it would take is one major Catwalk collapse induced by rusting REBAR with concomitant injuries; to induce the legislature to act.
This is a critical issue without doubt.
Dave Israel
According to the 309 Declarations of Condominiums, in about two years, all of our condominium buildings in CV will be at least forty years old. The forty year Recertifications are for Electrical and Structural Building components. Being proactive as Dave and Lanny are stating, is of the utmost importance. Apart from the safety aspects are the financial preparation for very expensive evaluations and upgrades. A "Forty Year Recertification" line item in each Association's Reserve Schedule would be a prudent consideration starting in the 2011 Budget.
ReplyDeletehi,guys, we just had our second floor catwalk redone. we are a 16 unit building and the bids we received were between 48k and 16k for the exact same work. we went with the 16k contract and assest each of our unit owners$1052.40. the work was started and completed in two weeks(we had a weather situation) and now we have an upstairs carwalk that will last another 40 years. they even painted our ceiling and repainted our downstairs to match the new paint upstairs. we are very pleased .
ReplyDeletePhyllis...Could you give us the name of the company you used....Of course we will get other bids also.
ReplyDeleteTHANKS
Hi Barbara,
ReplyDeleteMay 28, 2010 10:43 PM,
OK, let's hold on a minute, what does this mean:
"we just had our second floor catwalk redone"
Were soundings taken to determine the integrity of the REBAR, or was the catwalk merely patched and painted.
Let's have some details of the work please.
Dave Israel
yes,soundings were taken and most of the catwalk was torn up to expose the rebar and it was treated or replaced accordingly. did you think i would do it any other way?
ReplyDeleteTwo more things to throw into the mix, and I really appreciate this subject being discussed:
ReplyDelete1. A friend knows of a condo association (not in the Village) whose entire catwalk structure was (had to be?) redone. It involved not only removing every part of the structure that you see, but also tearing out the front 1-2 feet of every unit on the catwalk (yes, walls, windows and doors) in order to get at the part of the slab UNDER THE UNIT. This is scary. I can see such a thing bankrupting us.
2. Some catwalks don't have the very heavy concrete railings. Some have metal railings, which would stress the cantilevered slab far less. Would it make sense to get rid of all the concrete railing and replace it with metal?
Code, again, I'm sure comes into this, but I'll be honest about this: the whole Code business scares me for fear of the costs involved. Some of our owners can barely afford their monthly dues.
Hi Phyllis,
ReplyDeleteMay 29, 2010 7:27 AM,
There was no doubt in my mind that you did it properly, I was simply eliciting some more detail for our bloggers, so that they can get a feeling for the scope of such a project.
Thanks,
Dave Israel
We had our metal plates replaced last year on the second floor. We paid $6,250 to Mike Miller through Seacrest. That did not include repainting the concrete when they were finished. We have asked for an estimate. I am sure that I could do it myself but I don't climb on ladders.
ReplyDeleteHi Grace,
ReplyDeleteMay 29, 2010 1:19 PM,
Normally the metal plates on the Catwlk covers expansion joints.
Did you notice if your buildings expansion joints were open and devoid of concrete so as to allow free movement of the concrete plates?
Dave Israel
The metal plates over the expansion joints don't strengthen anything, as far as I know. Also, a plate UNDER the joint should have weep holes, so water that gets into the joint will drain out. Otherwise, such a plate can do more harm than good by holding the water in, which results in it getting into the rebar.
ReplyDeleteThe rebar is the source of most of our concrete problems. It is put into concrete structures because it greatly strengthens the concrete by having something to "wrap around." (It's serves a purpose similar to the old lathing which would be plastered over in making walls in a house.) It's not that the rebar is heavy in itself and the real strong element, as is the metal car bumper inside your plastic bumper.
The problem is that when the concrete develops cracks, water gets into the concrete, finds its way down to the rebar and begins rusting out the rebar. It not only rusts the rebar, however, but it also sets up a chemical reaction whereby the whole business EXPANDS, which results in these "blowouts" of the concrete we see. This is why it is important to fill surface cracks in concrete as they occur and paint over them.
I think that's how it works, anyway. Wiser heads than mine can have the last word....
Something just occurred to me. Maybe there ARE steel bars (beyond the normal rebar) in our cantilevered catwalks. Steel bars that, unlike the rebar, would be themselves load-bearing, for isn't that how something IS cantilevered? Perhaps they extend through the slab from a foot or two within the wall of the apartment. Maybe we need a concrete contruction person to weigh in on this. My son John, up north, could tell me. He's in the business of putting in concrete foundations, retaining walls, and the like. He is always managing a "pour" (when the cement truck unloads concrete mix). But John's so busy, I can seldom reach him. It's like the little guy's on another planet!
ReplyDeleteHi Lanny,
ReplyDeleteAre you up on your Differential Equations; in this case the Euler-Bernoulli Beam Equation.
Best not to work so hard, it can get sticky. I would advise that you get your building plans from the courthouse, something I would recommend to any Board, over time you will find them invaluable in protecting yourself from exploitative contractors.
The plans will give you the numbers you need and the internal construction of the slabs.
Dave Israel
Thank you, Dave. It has been a long time since differential equations and I had anything to do with each other. We were not such great friends, I might add. Thanks for your advice. That is exactly what we should do: get our plans from the courthouse.
ReplyDeleteHow in the world do you run UCO and the blog (and both so well) at the same time? Oh, I see: The time you made your Comment tells me all. You are one of these Thomas Edison fellows, who sleep only four hours a night.