A TELL-TALE SIGN

I submit the following to wiser heads than mine on the Maintenance Committee or anyone else who would care to comment, correct, etc.

There has been a lot of talk lately about ways to avoid water leaks, or at least catch them before there is major flooding of apartments. One thing that can help—though it is not a cure-all or infallible—is to keep an eye on those small pipes near the ground that extend out of the sides of some buildings.

The pipes coming out of our 2-story, 35-year-old buildings at Sheffield N carry off water from central air-conditioner air handlers (first floor and second floor) and from overflow pans under water heaters (second floor only). At least that’s what seems to be the case here, our having learned through some trial and error.

If you see such a pipe and it is dripping cold water, that is probably the normal drain water coming from directly from a first-floor or second-floor air handler.

If water is flowing in a fairly steady stream from the pipe, this suggests a problem. If the water is hot, it is probably from a water heater leak in one of the second-floor apartments, more likely one of the apartments near the side of the building where the pipe is located. The water is leaking into a pan under the water heater, and a pipe is carrying the water off to the outside. If you are fortunate, the leak from the tank will not be in excess of what is being carried off—otherwise, the pan will overflow and your damage begins. Take immediate action to remedy the problem.

If, on the other hand, the stream of water from the pipe is cold, it is probably coming from the overflow pan under an air handler in an apartment with central air-conditioning. Check the appropriate upstairs and downstairs apartments. The air handler is usually accessed by a removable panel in the ceiling, although it may be a ceiling in a closet. In normal usage the pan should be dry. If there is water in the pan, there, most likely, is your culprit. If the drain pipe is partially clogged, the pan may overflow causing damage. Shut off the a/c so no more water is produced, then take immediate action as needed to remedy the problem.

Checking these pipes on the outsides of buildings that have them should by no means take the place of any other kind of inspection or checking. Many of our buildings were constructed in a hodge-podge manner. Most of us don’t know with certainty what the pipes connect to. Through some trial and error, we’ve been able to determine this to some extent for our buildings. This is just an ADDED way to keep an eye on things.

New street sign down on ground

The new street sign is down on the ground for Easthampton, Salisbury and Waltham. I think the stormy winds blew it off the post. Hope it can be fixed to go back on pole.

CATWALK ADVICE NEEDED

No, I don’t need advice about walking my cat, thank you anyway, Village cat lovers….

I’m referring to our cantilevered second-floor concrete walkways, many 30-plus years old like ours. Throughout the Village our concrete elements are cracking and needing attention. What about our concrete catwalks—especially those with heavy concrete railings? Haven’t some in the Village fallen down? Shouldn’t we being taking steps to prevent this from happening?

What would any of you who are in the know recommend we do? Some associations have installed posts at the outer edges of the catwalks, which I’m sure must help. Would you suggest posts be made of steel, wood or concrete? How far apart would you suggest these be placed? Would you advise putting in a header (and if so, of what material)? Would the typical first floor walkway provide sufficient footing, or would you put in a special footer under each post? Would you place the posts between the square balustrade posts on the catwalk or directly under them? (I understand each section of concrete railing is supported by these square posts not the rounded balusters.)

We would appreciate any advice that is out there on how to deal with what we think is a looming problem. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, seems to me. We're looking for the least expensive, effective way to remedy this problem without creating an eyesore.

Thanks.

Tankless Water Heaters 2

George R Pittell said...

To Peter Amato

It should be evident to readers of my posting how little I know about installing Tankless Water Heaters or I might add any other type. That is why my posting is asking questions to which we need answers to our concern of fire risks. My concern is simply based on the presentation by the Chief Plumbing Inspector Joe Kajak and Bob Carr who I belief is the Chief Electrical Inspector, that they delivered on 2/9/10. I would liked for you to have been there to present your position so that the rest of us could see how the differences could be settled.

We are going to have a new Maintenance Committee Chairman. Let me go out on a limb and suggest there be another meeting where you and they can make your case and answer questions. Or, perhaps it could be arranged for you along with persons from C.V. who have knowledge of this issue to go to Mr Carr or someone he might designate were he not available.

In your posting you state “there is sufficient electrical power in C.V. W. Palm Beach to install 44amp Tankless Water Heaters provided wires are upgraded to #6 and the breaker changed to 50amps”. You further state how the Planning Department would issue permits for 44amp Tankless Water Heaters. Again I am asking is that all that is required for the needed extensive rewiring?

Certainly I cannot dispute the process you describe in obtaining a permit. What is of concern is to determine that Tankless Water Heaters already installed were done under permit and in accordance with any applicable Codes. Another thing I do not know is how many Tankless Water Heaters have been installed in the village to date by yourself or any one else. If any have been installed by you, it would be a great help for you to present copies or other evidence of the applicable codes, plans and permits for each installation.

As you might imagine this would go a long way to alleviating our concern of a risk of fire.
GRP

Tankless Water Heaters Concern

While Tankless Water Heaters may not be illegal in C.V, there remains cause for concern. I understand that for them to be installed safely under code and permit, with what most people require as producing the temperature level they want and expect, would make the job very expensive as it would require extensive electrical rewiring.

Any installation without the required rewiring could pose a fire risk that would likely vary with each building as to the extent of the deterioration of its wiring over the years.

Avoiding this risk and expense would call for installation of a type of Tankless Heater that would
not produce hot water at the heated temperature most of us would require, but it would be acceptable under code.

This is the assessment of Tankless Water Heaters presented by 3 county officials including the Chief Electrical Inspector, Bob Carr and Chief Plumbing Inspector Joe Kajak, at a Maintenance Committee meeting on 2/9/10.

Many of those Tankless Heaters already installed in
C.V. may not be wired correctly and may pose a fire risk to both the unit and the building. The risk would greatly increase if more units had such installations.

It remains for the associations to now act upon those installations in code violation and to see that any future Tankless Water Heater installations are done under permit, within code and with the required rewiring.

Why the Association? It might be an association’s position that having informed the unit owners of the need to make certain of a contactors being licensed and insured is all they need do. Perhaps not.

An association, having advised unit owners of the need to check contractors for being licensed and insured may not leave the association without further responsibility and perhaps facing some liability.

Isn’t it possible in the event of a fire caused by a Tankless Heater, installed in violation of the appropriate code, and causing damage and serious injury, that an association having known of the risk of fire and having not taken corrective action could find itself facing significant liability claims with the added problem of possibly being denied coverage by their insurance company, based on neglect?

There is within UCO a Safety Committee that does a fine job advising and cautioning our residents in matters of safe driving, walking and the use of Golf Carts here in the village They also work closely with our Sheriffs Dept. Perhaps upon verifying the information presented here, alerting our residents and associations on the risk of fire as noted above could be added to the committee’s area of concern.

I learned recently from a friend in Boynton whose home was rebuilt last summer after burning to the ground, that when the first cold spell came and he tried to turn on the heat he discovered it was never wired. In addition a heat pump was put in but was also not wired. This work was all done under permit. From this we can see that having been granted a permit does not insure the job being done right.

I believe the above statements are accurate and I am prepared to allow for any contradiction that can be factually established. I am just asking this matter be given the consideration it requires now, rather than after an incident of fire and tragedy.

Some may feel installing a Tankless Water Heater is the business of the Unit owner and no one else. I believe this message shows that is not true.

Peter Amato’s posting on the Blog states that there is sufficient electrical power in C.V. W. Palm Beach to install 44amp Tankless Water Heaters provided the wires are upgraded to #6 and the breaker changed to 50 amps.

He further states such a Tankless Water Heater “complies with P.B. County Building Division, Planning, Zoning, and Building Department and that the above Planning Department would issue permits for 44 amp Tankless Water Heaters”

As stated above my understanding is that there would need to be extensive rewiring for safe installation of the type of Tankless Water Heaters, that could provide water heated to an acceptable temperature.

Does upgrading the wires to #6 and changing the breaker to 50amps meet the expected “extensive rewiring” that would be required? Or need there be more? What would the electrical inspector say?

As noted above my concern is also with Tankless Heaters already installed in the village. What do we know about them? Rather than being shown how permits can be obtained I ask it be shown if these Tankless Water Heaters were safely installed.

Seeing the horrifying photos of the fire damage at Oxford 400 should only reinforce our concern of the risk of fire. The damage to the unit and the resulting smoke damage to several other units should heighten our resolve for finding and removing fire risks from any source including Tankless Water Heaters.

George R. Pittell

WATER VALVES

Jerry Karpf:

Regarding your article in the March UCO Reporter about water valves
I would appreciate you stating all the advantages a unit owner will get
for installing a water valve. What is the cost?